Difficulty Level and feedback *** SPOILER WARNING ***

[Scurra]

Now that most people have had a chance to get somewhere (or nowhere!) with issue one, I find myself in something of a quandary.

I genuinely didn't think the puzzles in issue one were particularly difficult.

But I can also understand why some people didn't even know where to start with some of them, because I deliberately chose not to tell people what to do; I find it interesting that almost everyone did the Wordchain puzzle first, presumably because I did give explicit instructions for that one, and equally I'm not surprised that the crossword is pretty much the last one anyone does (I'm not counting the final "meta" puzzle here.) In general, they are two-stage puzzles - first work out what you need to do, and then working out how to find an answer from that process. And yes, one of the puzzles has a third stage beyond that. But only one of them - and it's not the crossword!

And I don't want to change that. But I also don't want to frustrate people either - although the whole idea of this forum was to help alleviate that frustration, by giving people the chance to ask questions, it's still not ideal.
Likewise, I feel as though I don't really want to post specific hints (as is the case with, say, Tally Ho!) partly because hints still won't help everyone, and partly because I don't know what level of hinting would be good. For some of the puzzles in issue one even saying anything feels as though it would be more than a hint.

So I'm asking for feedback. Please don't talk about specific puzzles in the thread; I'm after general feelings here. I want the puzzles to feel challenging, not frustrating. As I have said elsewhere, a puzzle is a battle between the setter and the solver in which the setter has to lose, but not so easily that the solver feels cheated, but they still have to be defeated. If the solver does not win, then the setter has also lost.

Obviously I am happy that several people have managed to solve all the puzzles (including the final "meta" puzzle.) But I am perhaps more unhappy when people say "it's too hard for me." And suggestions for addressing that particular problem would be welcomed.

[eirian]

I think my main problem with the puzzles is that I do have to ask for hints on quite a few. I really dislike doing that - it takes something away from my sense of satisfaction when I finish them, if I had to have help.

When I have plenty of puzzles still to do, I can take a break from one and have a go at another, but when I get towards the end, I've usually had a go at all the ones I have left (or at least the ones where I can see a starting place) and so I reach the stage of having to ask for a hint in order to progress. I do that a few times, but then don't want to keep asking, so take a break from all the puzzles - and then I have a tendency not to return to them, even when I think of a new way of approaching a puzzle (or get ideas from the open discussions in the forum), which means that I'll never finish (as I never have with the Runes, much to Wulfruna's continued disappointment).

I don't really believe that the level of difficulty is too high for me - I just find the continual having to work out what to do next, and the frustration of dead ends builds up until I can't face any more frustration, so I stop doing them. Perhaps some sort of official hints system, like that in place for Puzzletown (and I presume Tally Ho, although I haven't looked at that one yet), might be worth it - although I would suggest that you don't implement it for a magazine until the magazine has been out for, say, a month, to remove the temptation to get hints without trying first.

The forums are an invaluable help as they allow you to check your answers so far with someone, something a 'hints' system wouldn't let you do. And the problem with any hints system is knowing whereabouts in the puzzle the hints will be needed - and giving the hints at the point required without giving spoilers for those who haven't reached that far, so maybe an automatic hints system wouldn't work - the person giving the hint needs to be able to tailor the hint to the person asking. So maybe the only automatic hint would have to be just an initial 'how to get started' instruction.

So no matter I've only done 6 of the puzzles, I feel I've had my monies worth, so will be buying future issues.

[BassBloke]

Scurra

To be honest, I think the whole thing feels just about right. Even though the back page answers to some of the "standard" puzzles in the mag are wrong.

At the start, the meta puzzle pages were a bit baffling. Then, as you know, ideas come and go and the mist starts to clear. Some puzzles were easy (I use that word with caution) other were very very hard and I could not have done them without nudges from many of our freinds. I still can't crack one of the puzzles and had to back solve it. Despite a lot of very good natured help, it still eludes me. My personal hurdle is always figuring out how to start. Nudges and hints usually get me going and I can plough, and stare, my way through a puzzle from then on. Mostly. I think this may have been where DVP got it right with thier hints etc. But, I can see where you are coming from in that it must be very difficult to hint a puzzle that you have set without fear of giving it away. I suspect it may be something of an art.

I think you are being a bit harsh on yourself really. Every puzzler must get to know his/her puzzle setter. Think how long it took some of us to get to grips with DVP. At least 2 or 3 issues I would reckon before we really got any insight into the "mind" of the setter. The Runes required many feats of new learning and understanding. And, I'm told, this is also the case with cryptic crosswords. I can't do cryptics myself, but many crossword addicts have told me the mind of the setter is the key.

I say, stick at it and keep up the great work. I look forward to issue 2. The only thing that worries me is will any of us ever really understand how your mind works???

Cheers. BB.

[Laura]

Yeah, generally I agree with all that's been said. Even though the first time I looked at the puzzles I said 'they're impossible', they slowly became a bit clearer, and some of them I managed without hints. Some I've had to ask for advice about, and others I've managed to work out from what other people have been posting. I think they're just at the right level.

However, I did like the way they did it in DVP where you could decode a hint if you wanted to, or the first part of a hint. I found that with those, if you were completely stuck they could give you a bit of a start, without telling you exactly what to do. And if you got stuck part way through, the hint would maybe give you some more info, or at least confirm that what you'd already done was right.

I wouldn't change the level of difficulty though, it seems perfect to me.

[Looby]

I have found this very difficult. I spent about a week when I first got the mag trying to do the puzzles and got nowhere. So effectively I gave up.
Since then I have met with LAT who has given me hints as to what to do with some of the puzzles, but I haven't picked the mag up again to try.
I'm sure that when I know what to do they will mostly be solvable, but I just don't know how to start.
I would like some system like the hints DVP used so that at least I can get part way into a puzzle with just the mag and not having to go online to the forum or to a pm.
I would settle for a mix of levels, so that almost everyone would be able to do a couple of the 'inner' puzzles but only a couple of people would be able to do them all and most would be somewhere between.

I love the idea of the magazine - I just can't do it!

[supersleuth]

I have sympathy with Looby here. I found, I think, four of five of them a nice challenge. Some I did and others I needed only a word or two hint. At least one of the others I've had to have what really amounts to a walk through. I have two left. One I don't think I'll be able to do as I don't recognise a couple of the pictures, in spite of advice to try Google images etc.

I accept that my lateral thinking is not very developed, though, and that paradoxically is why I am enjoying the puzzles tremendously, in spite of what I've said above, as it does make me think other than logically.

I also think official hints would be good - as with DVP, where you could even text to get a really good start.

Several people have given me a lot of help and I have actually also given miniscule amounts of help to others. But I find it very difficult indeed to give a "hint", which is (a) genuinely useful and (b) doesn't completely give it away.

Looking this over, it sounds quite negative, but really I'm loving them and quite excited about the next mag. Just wish I thought I hadn't now reached a full stop without someone literally telling me what to do.

[kingsley]

I think the puzzles have been brilliant!

Being not fully educated yet, I am slightly lacking some of the knowledge needed to complete some of them, but with the help of the people on here (and google!), I've got through most of them. I've really enjoyed them, especially when I completed one before giraffe without any help!

Some of the puzzles I really enjoyed, whereas others were a bit more tiresome, however, I am at a loss to understand how you make up such good and challenging puzzles!

Well done Scurra, and Gill! I'll definitely be carrying on doing the magazines!

[Cenwulf]

I started with 'Embarkation of the Queen of Sheba' and 'Rose-tinted Glasses', as I could see exactly what to do.
Here are my Marks out of 5 for the puzzles, where 1 is 'relatively easy' and 5 is 'diabolical':
Celtic Knot - 3
Monastic Year - 5
Arnolfini Mirror - 3
The Da Vinci Code - 4
Bar-Oquen - 3 (or Baro-Quen)
The Embarkation of the Queen of Sheba - 1
Magnetic Poetry - 3
Playing to the Gallery - 2
Impressionist Word-Chain - 3
Rose-tinted Glasses - 1
The Persistence of Memory - 2
Surrealist Crossword - 5
Driven to Abstraction - 2
Meditations on Psychology - 3
So the total is 40 for the Base puzzles. Given that there are 14 base puzzles, this gives an average of 2.86 per puzzle, which is close to the ideal average of 3. The balance is therefore about right.
I haven't marked the 'Meta' as I haven't finished all the Base puzzles yet.
Please bear in mind that this is a personal opinion of puzzle rankings, and others may disagree.

I genuinely didn't think the puzzles in issue one were particularly difficult.

Well, 'difficulty' is relative - you may think a puzzle is not too difficult, but then you know the method and the desired answer. But solvers on the other end are completely in the dark about the method, and have no idea what the answer is likely to be.
It's like a cryptic crossword - the clue says one thing, but there are two bits (definition and wordplay) - which have to be disentangled, and they mean different things when they are separated from how they read when they are together.

[Bunnylump]

Generally, they have been very satisfying puzzles, but I must say that I definitely wouldn't have managed most of the central section without either a nudge or or having read comments on the forum. (As Supersleuth said, I'm also not particularly good at lateral thinking). I personally would like to see either a slightly more obvious instruction at least as to how to get started, or a hint system, maybe with a hint which you have to decode so you're not tempted to look too early. However, if you did do this please don't be tempted to use a complicated code system for hints or the booklet would definitely end up in the bin!!

I would also quite like to see a solution page with the solving method which would pop up when you've entered the right answer. There was one particular puzzle which I'm still not totally sure if I did it the "right" way, even though I did get the right answer. Sorry, I know that would give you even more work to do.

I'd also like to echo what BB said: don't be too hard on yourself. You've both done a fantastic job here and let's face it, how could you possibly know what everyone would find too difficult or too obvious? Being a beginner in the puzzle setting scene, I can tell you that I have been gobsmacked at some of the puzzles people found "impossible" (which I had thought were easy) and how easy some of my "hard" puzzles have been.

My only other comment, which I hope you won't take as being major criticism, is that personally I'm not massively keen on puzzles which require hours of searching about on Google. But then that's probably just me, because I'm thick and uneducated!

[giraffe]

I thought the general level of the puzzles was just right. My first thought was that I could only do one puzzle without help, but I managed to chip away at some of the others, until I had more or less done them. The two that caused the most problem for me were Da Vinci, which I had to have a virtual walkthrough. I didn't know where to start and even after being told what to do I had to be told more or less exactly what to do at each stage. (ie not just a kick start) and the other one was Baroquen. With this it was just a bit too obscure. The clues were slightly too vague and the answer didn't look like an answer. The surreal crossword I had a bit of help, but it was more checking I was doing it right. (Total confidence failure!)

Fernando is rather fed up with it all at present. He is making progress with a few nudges, but I think the lack of instructions is annoying him. He did the poetry one tonight with very little help and made some steps much faster than I had. I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.

I don't really want instructions, except where they are part of the puzzle. For example I enjoyed the puzzletown puzzle that is like Meditations on psychology more than the one in the magazine.

I'm really looking forward to issue 2, I haven't ordered yet as I was waiting to see how Kingsley and Fernando got on, whether to subscribe for them or just order the second magazine?

[LAT]

I would agree that I think the difficulty level is about right. I did need help in the form of hints and nudges on some of them but equally was thrilled to manage some all on my own. A couple of the best clues I got actually came from you Scurra, one on Da Vinci Code and one when you removed the cry of frustration I made!!

They were all do-able, I looked through Cenwulf's list of rating and while I would agree with some there are others that were completely different for me. We all bring something different to puzzles like this and that is the beauty of the forum and the fun that can be had when working together towards a common goal. I have really enjoyed this magazine and look forward very much to more of the same.

The only thing that worries me is will any of us ever really understand how your mind works???

Couldn't agree more BB

[MBH]

What??? There were puzzles to solve as well??? I thought it was a pretty book about art

It's like a cryptic crossword - the clue says one thing, but there are two bits (definition and wordplay) - which have to be disentangled, and they mean different things when they are separated from how they read when they are together.

Like the words of one song sung to the tune of another..... Hi Humph - nice to have you back

OK - Joking aside - you've done a fantastic job on the magazine We all knew that I wasn't going to be in the first 3 finished.... OK possibly not the first 30.... but the initial 'looking to see if you can work out what's going on' is fascinating.

THEN I NEED THE HINTS!!!!!!! I'm taking them one at a time, but for most of them I have no idea what is required. On one that I THOUGHT I had a method for, I was nudged by LAT to the fact that I was wandering off into the wilderness In my defence, my propsed understanding of the method DID make perfect logical sense - it was just wrong.

Thinking of hints - my (dodgy) memory does tell me that the in-book hints on DVP tended to state the one fact that you'd already worked out by reading the story So the never got me any further forward.

My only other comment, which I hope you won't take as being major criticism, is that personally I'm not massively keen on puzzles which require hours of searching about on Google. But then that's probably just me, because I'm thick and uneducated!

Got to agree with my little Sis here - part of the reason for my slow progress is that these LOOK as if they will need dedicated puzzle time with instant online access. On the poetry one I can only seen ONE word that triggers a line in my mind - and a quick check on the internet showed that I couldn't even quote that one accurately So this will take a chunk of Internet time to progress.

The one that involves Shakespear quotes (hey -I recognised it as the Bard), and peoples names - I'll need Google to find out where the quotes come from and who the names are, in order to then find out if there's ANY relevance in that information.

Scurra did tell me at one point that I haven't done enough of these types of puzzle to recognise what is being looked for on any individual page. That should get better the more I do.... can anyone see a Catch 22 here?

I've signed up for the subscription, but due to lack of time there IS a chance that these partly completed magazines will join the set of half-done DVP mags in a folder marked "For some future time" - but I'll enjoy the journey while we're on it all together.

Hopefully anyone reading this will see it as a positive feedback - it highlights my shortcomings as opposed to an problems with the puzzle setting.

[giraffe]

The poetry one I didn't google as I had two books to help, but I spent hours on the film posters. (although that could have been cut down if I had thought of the short cut)

I totally agree that the dvp clues usually had me shouting "but I already knew that"

[SparkOut]

I've not been ignoring this thread, just having a problem with time enough to think about it and try (will no doubt fail anyway) to justice to the subject in my commentary.

I had a real blast with this issue. The only puzzly type publication I've ever subscribed to previously was DVP, and then only briefly as they shut up shop on it two months after I discovered it. I'm not really into standard sudoku and crossword type things (you mean there are pages outside the centre section with puzzles too?) but I really love inventive, intriguing and themed puzzles. (I'm a MIT hunter - you may have picked up some references.) The backstory of DVP was the most amazing thing about it, a big adventure game with puzzles embedded into its fabric. I'm talking about inventiveness that sparks the interest to the point of wanting to spend ages traipsing around a square kilometre of London looking for a particular type building as glimpsed in Prospero's flickr photo (and, while accepting reality that I'm never likely to discover it without more directions, especially as I'm only rarely in the vicinity) not being disheartened - despite getting soaked and a huge blister. I also like finding out about things, so if a puzzle requires me to do some research, then that's great - as long as it captures the interest. DVP did what I'd never found before, and provided all that in a magazine. Sadly missed, only the MIT and CiSRA style hunts to look forward to.

Until Puzzlebrains. It's even got some interesting "outer page" puzzles! But the real thing for me was the Meta section. I had a fantastic time (part of it spent ill in bed, giving me a bit more time than usual) getting really stuck in. For me, this first issue was the most exciting thing since DVP ceased and I really felt like it was a cross between DVP and a "hunt" scenario - there was a sort of "race" feel to it, although I wasn't really after a "prize", and ready to help where I could (still am, if people want to pm for hints - not that I'm good at hinting, more like "spoiling"). It was more like a happy feeling of kids running around a maze, calling "c'mon c'mon, let's get to the middle!"

Anyway, as far as the styles and difficulties goes, I think there has been a great mix of styles and types, all very inspired, all great at capturing the interest, with a coherent conjoining background. There has been a good range of difficulty, some that I'd have no hope without some assistance in identifying, some that I got quite readily, some that I thought "Oh, that was nicely done" and some that gave me good cause to curse the setter - and then myself, when I finally got it. I don't think there were any that were unfair, although some more positive feedback along the way wouldn't hurt for a few.

Bearing in mind that this "intense" immersion was linked to the reaction of the launch, and that it's a bi-monthly issue, I think the overall level has been spot on. I don't expect to solve the next meta anywhere near as quickly, and probably a good thing too, with two months to wait between.

Some extra "getting started" material would probably be a good thing. It's always very tricky to give hints though - what can you say that doesn't make it pointless having a puzzle, without being so bland as to get the "well I knew that!" response?
Perhaps there can be a "reward" system so that on entering the correct answer for one of the meta section puzzles, that results in a clue message being displayed for a selected puzzle yet to be solved?

Anyway, I can honestly say that (since I never really got the "buzz" from being exposed to DVP for long enough, and having come in after its start) I have never felt more enthusiastic about any sort of publication. Great work!

[giraffe]

Some extra "getting started" material would probably be a good thing.

I think that hits the nail on the head, not instructions, or even hints as such, just clues to find.

[LAT]

Following on from that, and my earlier thoughts maybe one way of helping would be to get nudges from you by PM when requested. That way we won't get the frustration that others have mentioned we had sometimes in DVP when you go to the effort of decoding a hint only to find it was the one thing you had worked out. And also the clues would only be available to those who had convinced you they needed them to get going. I for one find it very difficult to ignore a clue if it is there, even when spoilered (absolutely no self-control ) but would think twice about asking you before having a good go at trying to decide what was needed first.

I agree with a lot of Sparkout's comments about the buzz that this first mag has given me. I have loved the feeling of support and help from people along the way. And I have enjoyed learning some interesting stuff too so I don't feel that the time spent browsing the internet has been wasted.

Just wish I could think of some more people to share this news with - that won't look at me as though I'm mad when I try to explain. I am trying though

[Bunnylump]

Sparkout wrote:

It was more like a happy feeling of kids running around a maze, calling "c'mon c'mon, let's get to the middle!"

I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Snoopy]

I have enjoyed doing these puzzles. In fact I am still doing them. As regards to the difficulty, I have managed some ok, some with a hint and the rest are the ones I have no idea where to start. I think that hints or clues would be a good idea as long as they are not blatant. Sometimes I think that time is needed before that eureka!! moment hits in the middle of the night.
I did feel that there was a lot of googling for basic information(quotations, painters etc) which tended to depend on which web-site you used. Pick the wrong one and you could go cross-eyed before anything useful is found.
But I think overall the mix of difficulty is about right and I am looking forward to the next issue. I'm so glad that it is b-monthly as I have a chance of finishing this one before the next one arrives.
Top marks for all those involved.

[Scurra]

Firstly, I'd like to say thank everyone for their very reasoned (and reasonable!) responses. This is inevitably something of a learning process for me - one that will never end, I suspect...

I don't think there were any that were unfair, although some more positive feedback along the way wouldn't hurt for a few.

This is by far the most difficult thing to provide in puzzles - it's often the difference between a good puzzle and a great puzzle. Having said that, there isn't always room to provide that sort of feedback either: the process should tend to produce a direct answer, rather than leading to a subsequent stage.

I accept the point about searching for answers. I will however observe that of the fourteen puzzles in issue one, I think that only two of them wouldn't have been possible even if you happened to have the right sort of specialist knowledge - I know someone who did the film posters in about a minute, and someone who did the poetry bit without help, for instance (although they didn't know the answer to the final clue, they found it alright.) But neither of them had the faintest clue about the other puzzle!

I should also say that the next couple of issues won't have anything like the same integration of source and puzzles. Having said that, I do try to make sure that there is some sense of linkage... as you will see There are, however, still some that need some serious "looking up"...

I think it's clear that some sort of "getting started" option needs to be available - and it needs to be in the magazine, not just in the forum. So I am going to try something like that for the next issue and see how it goes. Meanwhile, I think it would also be fun to do something a bit like this:
Everyone gets one "free" question per issue (not per puzzle!) to ask me (or, rather, to ask editor since that would be better.) After a week or so, I shall then post the question and my answer in the forum (in a specific thread.) How does that sound to people?

[BassBloke]

Yip, sounds like a really good idea to me Scurra.

Cheers. BB.

PS. Are you planning to publish the "solutions" to the puzzles in future editions (like DVP did - eventually)? It would be really nice to find out how to do the one puzzle in this issue which has eluded me completely. Apart from the final stage, The Missing Artist, which still makes no sense to me whatsoever. If you can "read" our tries at solutions, then I have posted a special one just for you Scurra. Ha!!