Today I've mostly bin...

[Bunnylump]

I have to say that some modern art installations are just stoopid (like piles of bricks or unmade beds) but I wouldn't tar every piece of modern art with the same brush. For example, the last time I went to the Tate Modern they had a giant room with rectangular "holes" and columns it it. I thought it was breathtaking. I also LOVED a crazy stripped down car they had which had all the workings exposed, and every few minutes it sprang into life and everything started whirring and moving.

And, despite the fact I get horrific vertigo, I FORCE myself to go up things. For example La Segrada Familia, I actually walked RIGHT to the top and along the narrow walkways between those spires.

I did pass out when I got back down though.

MBH ...I don't believe you. All that stick wielding, dancing and aquaerobics? If you don't have some upper body strength after that lot then there's NO hope.

Mind you, I discovered how strong Dibble was today. I was in the kitchen and he wanted to get quick access to the cereal cupboard. So he lifted me, like I was a rag doll, right out of the way! And trust me, THAT is no mean feat...

[giraffe]

And that was before he had had his three shredded wheat.

[LAT]

I did wonder how you knew that MBH had good upper body strength but wasn't sure if I should ask!

And yes Gill, I remember it well. It made me feel quite sick to watch MBH - there is no way I could have got near enough to push him off.

[Bunnylump]

Well maybe I'm wrong (and clearly MBH thinks I am) but I don't see how you could do martial arts without being fairly strong!! How else would you think I would know?? (Poor MBH, he's probably horrified by this conversation!! - sorry!! ) I also wondered if that was the reason both of them were good at archery... But maybe it's more of a balance / steady hand thing. I'm rubbish at both those things.

Giraffe, Dibble doesn't eat just three shredded wheat. He eats five. But then he needed to have eaten them to be able to lift me.

[Scurra]

I have to say that some modern art installations are just stoopid (like piles of bricks or unmade beds) but I wouldn't tar every piece of modern art with the same brush.

Now you see you managed to cite two pieces of modern art that I rate pretty highly - because I've (a) been to see them, (b) been interested enough to find out what the artist was trying to do and (c) considered whether they mean something to me. (The bricks do, the unmade bed not so much. But they both definitely have artistic value.)
I'm not suggesting you haven't done the same thing (or that Cenwulf is a philistine, come to that), but to tar any piece of modern art at all with the brush "just stoopid" is quite rude to the artists.

And where do you draw the line? For instance, the London Hayward Gallery currently has an exhibition of "invisible" art. You might say that this is the ultimate Emperor's New Clothes , but all the works exhibited have clearly had considerable time and thought put into them by the artists, even if the superficial appearance is apparently of nothing at all. Does that make them of no value?

[Bunnylump]

I suppose it depends what you would think of as "art" really. If it's simply something to make a statement or to get a concept across, then of course it has a value. However, if it is something which would appeal to someone aesthetically, then no, it doesn't. However, what one person finds beautiful, another person will think is pointless, which is fair enough, really. Here's a perfect example. I think this is ABSOLUTELY beautiful, whereas others may thing "WTF?" And I would never criticise them for thinking that, because everyone (including me) is entitled to their own viewpoint and outlook on life, and art!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM2qTBRBUN0

[MBH]

*those self-appointed 'arty' types who believe they are the ones who 'understand' Art, and anyone who doesn't get it is a philistine.

It seems we have remarkably similar views on this subject I love the line that 'art is something that creates discussion and opinion', so even stating the fact "That is not art and is total rubbish" then becomes their confirmation that it is art Do they think we don't see the circularity of that proof? The only way round that is to totally ignore something and say NOTHING in which case all you hear is positive comments. Sneaky

Well maybe I'm wrong (and clearly MBH thinks I am) but I don't see how you could do martial arts without being fairly strong!! How else would you think I would know?? (Poor MBH, he's probably horrified by this conversation!! - sorry!! )

LOL - I've told you, you can't embarass me The fact is that the martial arts (in my mind) was a process of learning skills and technique. The 20-minute cardio 'warm up' was something I needed to endure to get through to the learning that I enjoyed. 4-5 years working with weapons has no doubt helped my upper body strength (a 6-foot hardwood pole takes some controlling) but many of the ju-jitsu skills are the sort taught to tiny oriental air hostesses for dealig with big, burly Americans demending perfection. [How many stereotypes did I hit there? ] In other words, strength is a lesser requirement to knowledge

[Bunnylump]

Ahh...I understand now, glasshopper... But I don't think I could easily wield a 6 foot wooden pole.

[Scurra]

And I would never criticise them for thinking that, because everyone (including me) is entitled to their own viewpoint and outlook on life, and art!!

Yes, which is why I was asking why you were willing to label something as being "just stoopid" when I know perfectly well you (like any sensible person) held this view. It's not "just stoopid", it's merely something that doesn't work for you (on any level.)

[Bunnylump]

Well, yes, I understand that. What I meant was IN MY OPINION it is something which is just stoopid. Someone else might think it is fantastic. However, if someone said that something I liked was "just stoopid" then I would think that they were entitled to their opinion. It wouldn't change MY opinion in any way, and it wouldn't bother me, as long as they weren't saying I was personally stupid!! You will note that I did not say that the ARTISTS were "stoopid", I said the installations were. From my perspective.

Which, I think even you must agree is perfectly fair.

I'm pretty sure everyone has drifted off, thinking "here they go again". Yes, this is a normal state of being for Scurra and me. But we do get on very well really...don't we honeybugs sugarplum sweetiepie?

[MBH]

Here's a perfect example. I think this is ABSOLUTELY beautiful, whereas others may thing "WTF?" And I would never criticise them for thinking that, because everyone (including me) is entitled to their own viewpoint and outlook on life, and art!!

That's interesting in the 'art' debate because I don't personally see 'film making' in the same category as the other art we're talking about. Obviously there is an art to this in the same way as (I think) there is an art to designing a good looking and functional spreadsheet - but that doesn't relate to The Art World as I think of it. [OK - so I'm probably old fashioned].

The clip you showed I HAVE stood and watched for real. Friday afternoon in the front street there was a sheet of foam packing material doing the most amazing loops and swoops. Just like that clip it showed the shape and interplay of the otherwise invisible air movement. But in my mind I wouldn't consider anyone capturing it on film creating 'art' but shooting a small clip of 'documentary'. How well or badly it is shot dependant on the skills of the camera operator.

What this means is every example I've seen of 'video installations' (usually in the City Library and Arts Centre - Sunderland.... otherwise known as my head office) leave me totally cold. How long am I supposed to look at this? What is the point?? Can I switch channels and get a cartoon???

Going back to Scurra's point on "looking into what the artist was trying to do/say", my thought is that as 'art' it should be visible as it stands and as soon as you need to hear or read the explaination of the thoughts behind the origins of the piece thenn you're back in the realms of the heads of countries adopting naturism That isn't to say that subtlety can't be hidden in things which can come up in discussion of a piece - but the piece should bee obvious as to what it IS.

I remember the story of the art critics passing judgement on the brilliant new artists who turned out to be a couple of elephants with a liking for sploshing colour

[clvrlad]

it is strange to read experts opinions on art and then read what the creator thinks

specially with authors and cinematographers

[kathlyn]

MBH stick wielding - I was beginning to think he'd taken up Morris Dancing

[clvrlad]

MBH stick wielding - I was beginning to think he'd taken up Morris Dancing

I've been on the receiving end

im just surprised no pictures of it turned up

[Bunnylump]

Hey, MBH - Morris Dancing - how about it?? Kathlyn, am I correct in remembering that Mr. Kathlyn used to do Morris dancing? Or did I imagine that?

I always like to see the Morris dancers outside the pubs in the local villages, I like the traditional side of it and the fact that they keep doing it regardless of the snide comments people make sometimes. Similarly, I think it's a shame that you don't see maypoles with children dancing round them on May day. We always used to have a maypole at school, but I haven't seen one for years.

[eirian]

I did a small amount of morris dancing over 20 years ago when I attended a european youth gathering - we all had to perform something of our nation. Was quite fun actually.

[MBH]

MBH stick wielding - I was beginning to think he'd taken up Morris Dancing

I probably could if I had a mind to, but from what I've heard it's 10% dancing and 90% beer drinking (and I don't drink) [Ha Ha - Sis posted just before I did]

On the martial arts forum I took the name Jang Bong which is Korean for 'Big Stick' That 6-foot staff I mentioned. [The tin puppy only got caught by the hook handled walking stick that we also trained with... it is in my car 'just in case' and comes in handy when my knee is playing up]

[Bunnylump]

Well I'm glad there was a valid reason for you to be known as big stick, MBH. That's reassured us.

[kathlyn]

Hey, MBH - Morris Dancing - how about it?? Kathlyn, am I correct in remembering that Mr. Kathlyn used to do Morris dancing? Or did I imagine that?

I always like to see the Morris dancers outside the pubs in the local villages, I like the traditional side of it and the fact that they keep doing it regardless of the snide comments people make sometimes. Similarly, I think it's a shame that you don't see maypoles with children dancing round them on May day. We always used to have a maypole at school, but I haven't seen one for years.

MBH stick wielding - I was beginning to think he'd taken up Morris Dancing

I probably could if I had a mind to, but from what I've heard it's 10% dancing and 90% beer drinking (and I don't drink) ]]

Yes Bunny you're right OH does Morris Dance. He only took 6 months off after his knee replacement last year before he was back waving hankies and wielding sticks whilst prancing in the air.

Maypole dancing is alive and well in lots of villages around here.

MBH - UHofO Morris men spend 90% dancing and 10% drinking - only the younger ones might be able to manage it the other way round. This group have a 14yr old (too young to drink) and the rest are 58 or older (the oldest man is 83) and most of them would certainly fall down or forget totally what they should be doing if alcohol was involved.

[MBH]

LOL - I've obviously been talking to the wrong dancing groups kathlyn An in-law cousin was a real ale fanatic and this was strongly linked to his activities within a Morris side.

I've done dancing, and I've done weapons work, so I'm well suited to this activity - but until I find a group that works to Latin American music I think they'll miss out on me Nice to know the traditional dances are still going down well.